Earlier this month, the Journal of Business hosted Lars Gilberts, Numerica Credit Union's vice president of equity and community engagement, for its most recent Elevating The Conversation podcast.

The Elevating The Conversation podcast is available on Apple Podcasts, Amazon Music, Spotify, and elsewhere. Search for it on any of those platforms or the Journal's website to hear the entire conversation, but for now, here are five takeaways—edited for space and clarity—from the episode, which runs just about 45 minutes.

1. Personal and professional lives have become more integrated, creating challenges in the workplace. One of the ways to define a cultural relationship that has been shared with me is, what you accept is your culture. There are certain cultures in the world that don't tolerate litter. They're known as very clean cultures and communities.

Similarly, in our workplaces, we've tolerated different things, but that's set the benchmark for the lowest common denominator. I would offer, that's compartmentalization. If we are willing to speak in a certain way in certain company, then that's who we are.

In the past, it's been considered OK to show up in certain ways in different places. Previously, in the workplace, leaders would say and do things that they would never say and do in their home, that they'd never say and do in respectable society.

Now, there's integration. I would say, for better and for worse, I think there aren't these separate spaces anymore. People have to live more integrated lives. There is more instant accountability than ever before. There's good that comes with that, and there's a lot of uncomfortableness that comes with that as well. 

2. Norms are changing, but creating more challenges. I think assumed in the question about changing norms is this belief that norms evolve to a more elevated perspective, which isn't necessarily true. I would say social media and our current political climate has devolved in such a way that it's okay to say something to someone on social media or make a political comment that we would never say when we're sitting across from each other.

I think we're seeing both things happen—changing norms and a regression in civil discourse—and I think one is probably a reaction to the other. We aren't rational human beings, and social media and political commentary are a great way to be able to lash out and to not have to be evolved integrated human beings. Yet, the workplace doesn't work well with that type of level of devolved commentary.

I think the workplace is this one place where we keep wanting to see evolved, more professional conduct, but the rest of the world right now isn't necessarily heading in the same direction. 

For business leaders, this is a difficult time. We've got people who aren't necessarily behaving in a way that we need and want them to behave in the workplace, but we still need to bring out the best in them in the workplace and with our customer bases. 

3. Weaponization of DEI has caused efforts to stumble. Any good intention often stumbles, and I think that work around DEI (diversity, equity, and inclusion) has been weaponized on a couple of different sides. So, I look at two different sides where there's been room for improvement.

On one side, has DEI been weaponized at times and has there been a kind of a litmus test? Yes. Jokes and also really frustration define the negative side of political correctness, being that the perception that the words we use are more important than the substance.

When people feel that, like, it doesn't matter what they do. It matters how they present. That's really challenging, and I think there has been some weaponization around that. That's the loss of nuance around trying to improve things.

On the other side, I think there's been a weaponization also around a loss of privilege for some people. I'm a white guy. I will have more tailwinds than other people. There are things that I can't control that will give me an advantage in situations and that will hurt other people or hold them back.

And yet, as a white guy, do I have less privilege and opportunity than I would have 50 years ago? Absolutely. That's not necessarily a bad thing, and for some people who have become accustomed to having certain tailwinds, the loss of that can feel really personal.

So, I'd say on both sides some well-intentioned people who have not had things go the way that they've wanted to on both ends of the spectrum have kind of weaponized their position. And again, good intentions gone astray is kind of what I would point to on both of those.

4. DEI works best when tied to financial outcomes. When we talk about DEI or any variation of that, it isn't a one-flavor solution, right? It's a buzzword and again that lacks the nuance. 

So, I'm gonna compare it to marketing and communications. When we think of business marketing communications, even if we don't have a dedicated team or a person that's doing that work, someone will still do the function.

At Numerica, we've got a marcom team, and they do a lot of things. They would not be effective if they didn't work with product development, frontline teams, members. They wouldn't be effective if they didn't understand our performance goals, our capabilities, regulations, all this type of stuff. They have to be an integrated, informed team to be effective in their function.

With DEI, when we look at a group that's focusing on our team, customers, and community, we want to make sure that everybody feels welcome here, that we're understanding their needs, and that we're getting consistent outcomes for different people. If we don't understand our business, we can't be effective, similar to marcom. 

Also, if you have a business function that is separated from your financial function, if it's a cost center without any drivers of your revenue, it's like an appendix. What does it do? When budget times come, like tough budget, cut it. Cut it out. 

But when it's integrated, and we see the dividends, the ROI on their work, we value it. We give them resources. It's not a placeholder. It's a key business function. 

Organizations that do this the best understand the value of DEI and the outcomes rather than any political correctness, and it's integrated. DEI, when done best, is looking at the unique needs of our our vendors, our employees, our customers, and our community.

5. Complaining can be a sign of belonging. At Numerica, one of the things we look at is the DEIBA, where the B and the A stand for belonging and acceptance.

With jargon and alphabet soups, it's like, oh my gosh, the acronyms changed yet again. The acronyms, they matter, but they don't matter as much as the outcome, and belonging is the outcome, right?

And so in the end, how do you know if your work with your clients and your employees is effective as you're trying to diversify, making sure that there are equitable outcomes and really make sure that everyone is feeling included?

Well, for better for worse, one of the ways to tell if people feel like they belong is they complain. They believe that their voice matters and that if they say something, they aren't going to be excluded, fired, or ignored. There isn't the risk, because they're part of the family.